ltwguns.com

OK - well here I am. I want to get into bullseye shooting. I need a 1911 for that and a good one. I was going to get a Kimber, as they are reasonablly accurate out of the box. I would learn the basics and get the fundamentals down. Then I would send it off to Clark or some other smith to get it tuned as a bullseye pistol.

However - I have heard that stainless steel is not prefered by smiths to work on - and that they may not make the best bullseye pistol.

Then I found out Kimbers black guns may be Stainless and have a black coating! I emailed Kimber about this and got this reply:

"In come cases yes the black pistols are Stainless but not always. The only way to tell is by applying cold blue to a wear point to see if the finish sticks.

Kimber Mfg., Inc."

So - what should I do? Should I gamble that the Kimber Target II I buy is not stainless? If it is stainless - am I screwed for getting it properly tuned?

Should I scrap the Kimber and go with my second choice - a Springfield?

Thanks for any and all advice! I have seen the custom gun the group has made and it is a work of art. I can only dream of ever owning something that was that beautiful.

thank you again for any replys!

_________________
"Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash, Army of Darkness

http://www.44MagnumGraphics.com - Coming in October, 2004 | Freelance Web and Graphic Design |

Mister .44

Just my 02, but I've built a lot of Bullseye guns and even shot that ego crushing game for about 25 years give or take, so what I'm about to tell you actually comes from some experience.

Start with a good forged carbon steel frame and slide, preferably with oversize rails. A Series 70 type. No need to even think about starting with a complete gun, as just about everything except the frame and slide will be destined for the garbage can.

After your Bullseye gun is completed, enjoy the game. It's the toughest one out there. If you can stay in the black while standing on your hind legs and shooting with one hand at 25 & 50 yards, you've accomplished something that few others have or will. Just make sure your pistol is accurate enough so that if you throw a 'snowbird', you'll know for a fact that it was the singer - not the song.

Cheers, Tim

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CT Brian Custom
'Blending Art With Firepower'

Brian - er Tim,

Thank you for the reply.

I realize that most of the gun will be trashed - thought it puzzles me why? I mean like the grip safty and the thumb safty on say a Kimber or Springfield seem fine - why would you replace them?

I know much of the internals will be tuned/replaced - and I guess it will need a match barrel.

Unfortunately - custom smiths do not seem very computer savy - and I guess I dont know where to find them. I know that there are some here and on the bullseye mailing list - but I dont have the $$$ right now to bug them.

Right now I know of three options for bullseye guns - "done" guns from Les Baer or Rock River arms for around $1400.

Clark will build one for $1400 too. OR I can send in my gun, and I think $700 to make it a clark gun. With the price I can get on say a Kimber (or evein a springfield) that will come to around $1400 for me. Only its not such a one hit to the pockbook - and I can perhaps grasp the fundamentals with a stock gun.

You are proposing to just buy a frame and rail and build one up - or have a smith build one up. I am completely ill equipt to do that task! I do not have enought knowlede to know what I should or should not choose.

Now - if I had $1400 - I could have Clark/rock river/les baer send me a gun!

I suppose if I had a closer gun smith I could work with it would be ideal - as he coudl give me a list of parts, I could gather them over time, and then let him work his magic.

Alas - where do I find someone like that?

And finally - what of stainless steel - I would almost prefer it over regular steel - how does it effect the performance of a done gun?

_________________
"Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash, Army of Darkness

http://www.44MagnumGraphics.com - Coming in October, 2004 | Freelance Web and Graphic Design |

Umm, hmmm. Sometimes one can't see the forest because of the trees....

From your reply, I think you might be better off just starting your Bullseye experience with a stock Kimber 5". Give it a couple of years with that.

It doesn't sound like you're quite ready for a 'true' Bullseye gun just yet.

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CT Brian Custom
'Blending Art With Firepower'

Heh

After the post I then saw that you had a website and yes - I do remember yours. And the others on this site I too have visted. Though not everyone specializes in bullseye pistols.

Actually - thank god for this site - as I have found more links to custom smiths than all my google searchs combined! Though I guess saying this - I sort of contradict my earllier statement. I guess what I mean is - they are hard to find - and many of them lack information - or present it in a way that a newbie like myself is lost. Some just show off thier work, with out explaining it.

The pistol you showed is gorgeous! And look at that one ragged hole! Yes that is something I want - someday! Can I inquire what that would run a person (feel free to reply privately mister44@interkan.net)

Yes - I think a stock kimber - or springfield - or colt - will be more than enough for awhile. But the meat of my question is - if I buy a Kimber - will the smith be able to do anything with it? Or should I get it - knowing that I will probably need to get someting from the ground up later?

I have been shooting since I was 5 - but mainly rifles. I got my first pistol this Dec. It was a ruger Mark II. I started to shoot indoor NRA bullseye targerts - I figured it was a good way to practice and measure how well I do. I started out two handed, with scores in the 200s, now I shoot in the 280s. I started shooting one hadned about 2-3 months ago, starting in the 200s, now I am in the 250s. I know that the .22 is only part of the aspect of Bullseye shooting - but I really enjoy it. It is sort of zen when I shoot - trying to get everything to line up and shoot straight! Of course I am shooting shorter indoor distances - but I am trying to find an outdoor range I can practice at. (trying one out this weekend)

Any way - I am new - but have alot of heart - and hope to become at least profiecent in this sport!

_________________
"Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash, Army of Darkness

http://www.44MagnumGraphics.com - Coming in October, 2004 | Freelance Web and Graphic Design |

Mister .44,
I am going to go along with Tim and say you should consider using a stock gun for a while just to get the fundamentals down before you have a true bullseye gun built. It's not a sport easy to just jump into, and it requires lots and lots of practice. Also, as Tim said, it can be an ego crusher.

As for the Kimber... I'd say it might be okay in the long run, but not on a series II, IMHO. I have never seen a stainless bullseye gun, and I know for fact that the AMU, Air Force, and Marine Corps shooting teams don't build any ball or wad guns on stainless frames or slides. AMU uses Caspian exclusively, and in all honesty, for a performing gun, it only makes sense to have it built on a frame/slide combo with oversized rails. A factory gun can be peened and squeezed to make it tight and smooth, but it will not last as long as 100% contact from a properly fully-built gun. For your beavertail question... this may sound really crazy, but it should all be RIGHT. An ill fitting beavertail can allow the gun to shift in recoil and make it feel/recoil differently for every shot, even if only ever so slightly. Bullseye shooting requires total concentration and consistency, and if the gun is not consistent, you cannot perform at a high level.

Enough of my rambling. Good luck in your endeavors, and God bless.

~Jim Keeney

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"I'd rather die on my feet than keep living on my knees." - Emiliano Zapata, Mexican Revolutionary

Mister 44, Actually, I think the reason you don't see too many people specializing in Bullseye guns is the seeming lack of popularity of that facet of the sport right now . Seems most shooters want the more active "run and gun" type shooting, such as IPSC, IDPA, and etc. There was a time when Bullseye was "it". I guess it's a different mindset, but it might be worth your while to ask some reputable smiths whose work you like if they do bullseye work. You may be pleasantly surprised.

Tim, nice gun and superb shootin'.

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Don Williams
http://www.theactionworks.com
http://www.ltwguns.com

Thank you for the advice Jim and Don.

I too agree that there is no way a $2000 gun will shoot any better than a $600 gun in my hands right now.

I know that IPSC and PPC etc are the hot things. And they look fun. It seems so much of fire arms is focused on being "tactical". But I dunno. I guess my dads instilation of marksmanship is still in me. I think I will impress him more with a tight group or good score than I will with a fast time ;o)

I belive the reason there arent any stainless bullseye guns is that stainless doesnt have the same mallible characteristics to match slide to frame as well.

So.... I could get a Kimber - if it turns out to be a stainless I guess I could sell it for a new gun - or keep it for fun. If it is regular steel it should work ok then I would think to send to a smith. I mean - the new USMC Spec. Ops. 1911 is by Kimber - so they must be doing something right.

Or - I may get a springfield - which I know Clark uses as his base for some guns - so they must work ok. I guess I have a lot to learn still. I will try to learn quietly in the shadows instead of bugging you all with "retarded" questions ;o)

_________________
"Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash, Army of Darkness

http://www.44MagnumGraphics.com - Coming in October, 2004 | Freelance Web and Graphic Design |

Someone wiser than I once said that "there are no stupid questions", so feel free to ask any that you have. That's one of the reasons we're here.

_________________
Don Williams
http://www.theactionworks.com
http://www.ltwguns.com

Thank you for the kind words Don. To be honest I am at awe at just the "gathering of minds" here.

I frequent the 1911 forum, MarkII owners group, and the AR15 forum - and while those places are informative - and entertaining - when I read the list of people involved here (some I have - or havent heard of - but once I have seen thier work I want to get to know) it really is intimidating! Like knocking on the Deans door to ask what 2+2 equals!

_________________
"Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash, Army of Darkness

http://www.44MagnumGraphics.com - Coming in October, 2004 | Freelance Web and Graphic Design |

Oh HELL Don, Mr. Ransom shot THAT group. I'm lucky to keep 'em on the backstop!


Mister.44, pick yourself up a Kimber Gold Match or a Colt Gold Cup. In blue. Both will give you good service and both will be buildable later on when your skill level increases to the point of warranting it. FWIW, I'd give the nod to the Kimber, as I believe you'll get a bit more inherent accuracy out of the box from it over a Gold Cup.

And by all means, feel free to ask questions. We're always glad to steer you in the right direction. Even if we don't have a clue what we're talking about!

_________________
CT Brian Custom
'Blending Art With Firepower'

My father used to shoot bullseye. I was interested in it and tried to shoot some. Most bullseye shooters shoot 22 and a 45. The pistolsmith referred to most on the bullseye list is Ed Masaki in Hawaii. Another smith is Jerry Keefer in Virginia who also frequents various 1911 forums. Larry Carter in Maine is also highly thought of. He is a police officer/smith. I am quite sure that many of the smiths on this forum can make you a wonderful bullseye pistol. Mike Curtis is another bullseye smith but I think he works for the BATF now. John Dreyer has a site, http://www.bullseyepistol.com and on there you can find the bullseye mailing list.

I have a hardball pistol converted to shoot wadcutters with a slide mount red dot. If you have larger hands, you could consider a Pardini GT 45. It is a double stack 45. Both of my bullseye 45's are sort of safe queens these days. Les Baer will make a bullseyepistol with a slide mount as well as Rock River. Most of the shooters on the bullseye list preferred slide mount red dots but there was alot of arguments.

Ed Masaki has a 1-2 year wait last I heard. If you can't wait that long, Gil Hebard in Illinois is a mail-order dealer who specializes in bullseye usually has Les Baers in stock. Larry Carter has some used Bullseye guns (http://www.larrysguns.com) I think the bullseye guys are at Camp Perry right now; so don't be suprised if you call and there isn't an answer.

I hope that helps. Good Luck.

Lester

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Lester Wang

Lester,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes - i have found that site- and while I have never posted - I am on the bullseye mail list. Just reading what others have to say.

I have Gils book on pistol shooting - I find it very helpful!

I will keep looking around for info. Looks like I have lots of time before I will be making my move.

_________________
"Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash, Army of Darkness

http://www.44MagnumGraphics.com - Coming in October, 2004 | Freelance Web and Graphic Design |