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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:49 am 
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Being either a spectator and/or a builder in the custom 1911 market as well as working sixteen years in LE I have made some observations. I may be alone on this but probably not. Custom guns are just that.....custom. Not guns with some "necessary" parts changed but rather guns that have had every detail addressed. Details that the builder can mold, shape, and ply his trade to in order to reasonably insure the gun's reliability, consistency, accuracy, aesthectic beauty, and appeal to the owner. Lots of interesting terms get thrown around and used in today's market "working gun", "beater gun", "car gun", just to name a few.

That terminology brings me to a point. If your gun is truly those things then one could draw the logical conclusion that it's the gun that will likely be with you most of the time. In your car, on your person, on your bedside table, or in close proximity for you to use to protect yourself, your partner, or your loved ones. That means when the sh$t hits you are looking to this gun to save your life, plain and simple. In describing the guns above many often take the term "working gun", for example, to imply the piece is one that leaves the user with a gun that is "less" or somehow sub-par to what's possible and only relying on the minimum modifitacitons to make the gun "ready for duty". Often times this need, or imagined need as it maybe, for a minimalist weapon, whether driven by economic factors, user preference, etc., leaves one with the impression that for a "hard use" "working" sidearm one must insist on only the most basic modifications and certian things are frivilous. Yes, cost can be a factor, however, in my opinion you should have as much gun with you that you can afford and that you know will do it's intended job. That does not mean everyone needs a full blown custom 1911.

Another interesting opinion often heard today is that if you are a police officer or law enforcement of any kind you don't want to get into a shooting with your $3k custom 1911 because IA or PSB will have it for months. I have thought of this for some time. If I get into a shooting and my 3k custom is the best gun I have and I use it to save my life then they can have it....for awhile. And these are things that are equally applicable to the private citizen who's main concern will likely be his/her life and the life of their loved ones. It simple logic that if you are serious about carrying a gun you should have another somewhere in your bag of tricks that you trust and that can be brought out and used should your original gun no longer be available to you. Allowing the thought of a potential investigation to cause you to leave your finely built gun, crafted to excell at it's intended task, where it can't be touched is silly and it flies in the face of why these guns are built in the first place...IMO.

In that same vein....two fold. In peace time, if you watch the trends of the custom pistol industry one may notice that customers want beautifully polished Colts, ivory, exotic wood, attention to detail, match barrels, etc...When we are at war, and the market cleverly catches on to an emerging trend, then the guns shift to "tactical", "deployment pistol", "duty gear", "hardcore", "high speed, low drag", "Spec Ops" or some other term that is designed to make the potential buyer invision himself on par with those who "do" and actually go into harms way. And by the way, the custom 1911 industry is not the only one to suffer ths fate. Soon after this you see the emergance of blasted black guns designed to be "less refelctive" and help the civillian who carries concealed be less prone to being spotted. All of which gives the reader or user the idea that these guns are somehow more durable or will by some measure shoot better and out preform the an elegantly styled polished blue custom in a fight for ones life. Marketing is a fantastic thing and it works in both directions. I have a Strider knife and I know why Mick Strider describes his knives as being for hardcore individuals. Those knives could survive almost anything, but does owning that knife make me "hardcore"? If it does cool, but I doubt it. I always liked to think that ones level of training, awareness, and common sense kept you in one piece. My carry gun is a two tone 5" Colt that is very appealing to me and at first glance it surely doesn't scream "steely eyed dealer of death" but it can and has kept me safe, polished flats, wood stocks and all.

"Tactical gear" is another interesting misnomer. Is "tactical" gear for getting tactical? Or is it to make one more "tactical"? Or wait now, is it for actually applying "tactics" and if I'm with out my "tactical" gear in the middle of a fight does that mean I would not be able to apply "tactics" or that mine will somehow be sub-par? This kind of thing could get a guy worried.:?

I guess "tactical gear" is for those LE and military guys and gals who are on just that, a tactical team, or military unit (whether it be a part time or a full time unit) whos job or specialty requires that type of gear. Small four to six man LE squads don't enjoy a dozen or so of their friends who are always equipped with an armored vehicle, long guns, shields, etc. but those squads can surely still apply "tactics" with out all the "tactical gear". Some LE personnel like the UC guys, or jump squads have to travel lightly, the idea is nobody knows who they are. This has been and still is very common in the military but being efficient and carrying what is necessary is a great deal more common plain clothed street partol than any LE or military personnel. In fact true LE SWAT guys make up a very small portion of the department. I have worked in law enforcement for sixteen years and with one of the largest Sheriff's Office's in the country for ten. Some of our best and most efficient guys and gals put on a cover shirt, jam their gun into an IWB holster and stick a reload and light on their belt when they are not wearing their blacks. They don't want anyone to know who they are. Ya, can't go in the grocery store looking like you just stormed the castle clad in black with gear hanging off of you. That stuff if for a very specialized and detailed type of environment. Certainly not the everyday civilian, UC cop, or housewife. Understanding these scenarios (or "mindset" if you will) and their related pitfalls is also most important for the civilian who, in reality, would only wear these items in a fantasy training scenario.

Most civilians are miles ahead of the competition with a great gun (your choice) a great holster (your choice) magazines that work (CMC Power Mags) and a light. You will more than likely use your light and your cell phone more often in a day than you will your pistol in terms of your well being. The phone gets the cavalry there if you need them and the light just lets you know which direction to run. Running, by the way, may include applying "tactics"

Lasers, tritium, gold BB's, GPS sighting, point shooting, icosoles, weaver, whatever :roll: All those thing don't amount to much unless you have trained, understand your gun, your equipment and most importantly your capabilities and apply those gathered strengths in a realistic mode. For the same reason you don't walk into the local Hell's Angels bar and declare "motocycles are for assholes" is the same reason you don't put yourself into a scenario that makes you have to use your gun when you otherwise would not. This brings us back to training and common sense, and what you carry.

The pictures below only illustrate what myself, my friends, and professional acquaintances feel works pretty well and is important to have on you at any given time and represent some of the best the industry has to offer. The first gun was built at Yost-Bonitz and I am not declaring that our guns are what someone needs to survive. The gun is only a representation of what I like on a personal carry gun. This one has extras that does not make it run better, or more accurate. The extras make it my gun, your gun, or whoever feels that the modification they want represent just that...WHAT THEY WANT. If this gun was a hardchrome Colt, Kimber, SA, etc...it would have black micarta stocks. That would be the only difference.

The light, a Surefire to me is a very clear choice. Espcecially this version. The A2 has LED and incandescent capabiities. The LED is for navigation and situation when you don't want to backlight yourself. The Emerson knife is a durable, well configured design that works out of of the box whether you carry your gun on the left or right. The leather speaks for itself. A great deal has been written on leather holsters, IWB, OWB, etc...However, for concealed carry Lou Alessi's PCH represents a collision of expertise and experience for those that carry concealed...with a little style. CMC magazines have proven to me, and many others to be the most consistent magazines. They hold up over time, the springs are overpowered, and the follower locks gun open consistently. In order to set up a gun properly to run there are only so many things that have to be right. However, when it comes to custom touches the builder and the customer are limited to their imagination. My guns are set up to be accurate and reliable.

These are just some thoughts that have been swirling around for awhile. Not meant as a declaration of any style, type, or brand....just some thoughts. Hell, I get overwhelmed with all the new doo-dads, and when you think about it the more basic you stay the less you can really cluster.

Image

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Some other excellent examples of fine carry guns.

CT Brian
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John Harrison
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Chuck Rogers
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Stan Chen
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Don Williams
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Ned Christiansen
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Theo Yost
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Certainly I am not saying that the above builders agree with what I have written but I feel their guns fit the description of elegantly crafted carry gun.

And as I think about it...I could be wrong. :wink:

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"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking."
- General George Patton Jr


Last edited by Steve Bailey on Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:15 pm 
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AMEN!!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:56 pm 
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That's just overwhelming! Awsome!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:36 pm 
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Well stated, and beautifully exemplified!

DW

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:51 pm 
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I agree 100%. In my 13+ years as a LEO I have never carried the company gun. I have had a lot of people question my decision and I've always thought if I had to use my pistol it would be okay because I have faith in it. Sometimes it seems people get all caught up in the cool factor and dont realize that their choice in firearms could mean their choice in life. Up until about 2 years ago I would have never been comfortable in working without my bat belt and all the tools it contains. Now after being on this FED task force I'm on I feel overburdened with the bat belt. Anyway a well thought out post and true information.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:31 pm 
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Another point of contention that irks me is the idea that a custom 1911 is very maintenance intensive. I have several highly customized 1911s with an excess of 25k rounds through them. They have never needed any maintenance other than a rountine lubing and cleaning and a change of recoil and firing pin springs at prescribed intervals. The extractors have never needed to be re-tuned (yes the ejection pattern has changed slightly, but it extracts fine), nor have they broken any extractors, slide stops or firing pin stops. There are no frame or slide cracks present. Magazines are replaced as they wear out of course and I only use factory ammuntion, so I don't think I am doing anything out of the ordinary. I have to wonder what manufacture of 1911 these individuals are referring to or if it is just in vogue to proclaim this to be the truth and subscribe to the theory that the 1911 requires a rebuild every 10K rounds.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:58 pm 
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Nicely said Steve. Thanks for your effort, that was alot of work!

Jim

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:41 pm 
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Very well put. I agree that it makes little sense to spend lots of money on your ideal carry gun, then leave it in the safe because you don't want it to get taken away if you shoot someone with it. I want the best gun I can afford riding on my hip. If it gets stuck in the department evidence locker for a couple of years, oh well- I have about ten other handguns I can carry. Unfortunately my department does not allow 1911s for duty use, or I would carry one in uniform. As it is, I'm stuck with a Glock 17, although I am seriously considering switching to my Sig P226R. I do carry a 1911 in plainclothes and off duty, mostly a LW Commander Ted did some work on. The only thing that bothers me about carrying a custom gun is flying with it- I would hate to see some baggage wrecker take my gun home, so I have a very lightly modified SA 5" that is my flying gun.

The 'liabilities' of carrying a custom 1911 don't bother me, either. I can explain why every single modification to my pistol made the gun safer for me and innocent bystanders. I've been a cop for 12 years, a firearms instructor and armorer for 10, and done SWAT, dope, etc. If a plaintiff's attorney tries to attack my choice of weapon or modifications, I feel confident I can kick that argument up their fourth point of contact. I use and carry Sigs, Glocks, and Berettas as well, but 1911s are my favorite and they are what I carry most often on my own time. We are in the process of getting a new chief, and if he proves amenable I'm going to see if I can get 1911s added to the authorized list. Then my NRM Colt will have to get 1*'ed :).


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:57 pm 
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Steve, I knew you were a meat and potatoes guy. That was all red meat!

You do see a lot of funny thought processes going on out there. "I don't want night sights because they'll eventually go dead," translation, I'd rather go without them for the next twelve years because after that, if I don't change them out, I'll be without them anyway....... "I don't want a light because he batteries might go out just when I need it most," translation, I'll be better off in the dark ALL the time for SURE than to risk the good chance of having light when I need to move and identify threats and then MAYbe have the batteries go dead. "I'll just carry this junker in case they take it away after a shooting," or, I'd rather NEVER have a reliable and accurate, shootable gun than have it when I need it most and then have to give it up for a while....

Not that carrying a gun that hasn't been through the shop first is the mark of the uninitiated.... if it works, it works. Lots of them work out of the box, some don't, the prudent one, of course, checks. As The Great Communicator used to say, "Trust, but verify".

Funny how we go through plateaus as we try to become better shooters. The second plateau or so has all the gadgets, we're afraid that if we don't have them, folks won't know how good we are. Then in the third and fourth, we realize that if we're good enough they aren't necessary. In the fifth we're good enough that they actually do help some, and we put them on again but are afraid now that we'll be labeled "beginner"..... gets confusing sometimes!
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 Post subject: Carry guns and gear
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:17 am 
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I second my friend John DelPinto's comments. Once my custom 1911s and BHPs were broken in (we all do that, right ?), I have never had a problem that wasn't magazine related. Needless to say, the problem mag got pitched forthwith !
I only use factory ammo, in good proven mags, and clean my guns after shooting. In 25 yrs. of carrying as a cop, and now a private citizen, they have never failed me.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:46 am 
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Carrying an uber-expensive (at least for my budget) custom pistol is something that I spent a lot of time pondering. It is sobering to think about what happens to a carry pistol, not so much on the hip but, in training. It is also sobering to think about what might happen if the pistol is actually used in a shooting. But, when I ran the numbers, pistols, even uber-expensive customs, are cheap.

Example: I shoot 100 (one Wally-World box) rounds of WWB 9x19 as week. At $11.00 per box, that is $550 per year (assuming a few weeks of vacation) in 9x19 practice ammo. I also shoot twenty-rounds of my .45 ACP carry ammo, usually 230-grain Golden Saber or PMC Star-Fire, a week at $15.00 per box. That is $750 in ammo per year. So just in centerfire ammo, I have spent $1300 a year. Now add all of the other consumables such as cleaning supplies, targets, classes, range fees, ad infinitum, and it is very easy to spend $2000 a year just for practice. In fact, my records show that I have averaged over $3000 per year in practice costs in the least five years.

With those kinds of numbers, a $2500 pistol set up to fit me with a life expectancy longer than mine makes a whole lot of sense. I suppose I could use a $400 Norinco 1911 to shoot my $3000 worth of annual practice. But I shoot my Precision Gunworks Colts a whole lot better and faster. I have a lot more confidence in the Colts than in the Norinco. Thus, the pistol in my holster is either my ivory-stocked 1991 than John did for me or a Series '70 Government that John did for another customer that found its way to me.

God forbid, I ever have to use the pistol I expect I will only see it one more time: in court. And that suits me fine as it will have saved my life or the life of one of my family members. I will also have John build me one more just like it. And cheerfully pay the tab. After all, I am still alive and free.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:33 am 
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You did good, Steve.

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 Post subject: very cool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:50 am 
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I kinda want to say............................




I'll take one of each please.


Bryan


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:28 pm 
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Well said, Mr Bailey.
Especially the part about being afraid of carrying an expensive gun for fear of losing it for a while (or longer) after being involved in a shooting. I never agreed with that logic. To me, that was like not driving the All Wheel Drive Volvo, because you might get in a wreck.

Will a fight's outcome be changed because one uses a custom pistolsmith's full house gun? Probably not. But why take a chance by not using the best tool you have available?

Then again, look around. Some people can't be explained.
I know I can't explain some people's carry habits at all.
I can think of a couple of guys off the top of my head who carry guns they have never shot, but don't understand why I work so hard to get to a class or two each year.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:55 pm 
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Steve, great think piece, well written, as usual.

WRT not carrying your best, most reliable gun because it's an expensive custom, that sort of logic reminds me of guys who would come into the motorcycle shop in Scottsdale, AZ where I worked my first year of college, plunk down HUGE money for a new German or Italian motorcycle, and then buy the cheapest helmet we had in stock (and that's at a time when the best helmet on the market, a Bell Star, cost all of about $60).

I guess the parallel is something like: [to the motorcyclist] "What's your head worth?" [to the person afraid to carry a custom pistol for fear it might wind up in an evidence repository] "What's your life worth?"

Some things I'll just never understand, I guess. :D

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:19 pm 
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Probably the best write up I've seen on the subject. This is something we discuss at length at the shop, both amongst ourselves, and with customers and colleagues.

As a full - timer for better than 20 years, and while I'll never wish for the industry to stop growing, it is amusing at times to see the trends evolve. Fifteen years ago, a Gunsite GSP was considered to be a premier fighting autopistol. In the words of Jeff Cooper, "Everything you need, and nothing you don't".

Here's the basis for what we built. Hi visibility sights - wider notch in the rear, ramp front sight in BLACK. A good reliable, durable trigger, set at 3.5 tp 4 pounds pressure, and crisp in letoff. We used an extended strong-side safety, narrowed and dehorned. We worked the gun for reliability, dehorned all the external surfaces, and put on a matte blue finish. Sound familiar?

The GSP fell away in popularity with the advent of beavertails, Novak sights, ambis, night sights, etc., etc...., and we supplied what the customers wanted. Jeff just rolled his eyes (when he was able to contain himself :) ) At other times he was downright chatty on the subject.

Today, the basic 1* pistol is our mainstay. Sure, with Novaks you can have tritium, and you can even spec a light rail if you wish, but the theme has come full circle.

We've all enjoyed the rise in popularity of the "tactical" 1911 of late, a melding of the same old stuff with a few new ideas liberally covered in a double helping of parkerizing and paint. Thrown in for good measure are generous portions of ego and the perceived ability to somehow identify with those "real deal guys" we hear so much about. If we have the same gun, we must be real deal, too....right? It's good for business, and it's good for the customers too. I consider this area to be the foremost "laboratory" in the 1911 arena. The up side is new thinking induces competition - and competition improves the breed. The parts we use get better. Our methods get better. Guns work better, and last longer.
These are probably some of the most well-used and abused guns in the marketplace, and we can learn a few things from them that will benefit all of us. The down side is that we become exposed to the underbelly of the industry, where there are a lot of folks whose keyboards write checks their hardware and ability can't cash. Lots of little boats with big whistles. This is IMO where a lot of the know-it-all gossip and urban legend regarding 1911's and their unsuitability comes from. I take blanket condemnations of weapons systems that have served well for generations with a pretty large grain of salt. The 1911 got us here, and it's better now than ever. Others need not apply. :P

My favorite segment of the market (get ready for a big surprise here :roll: ) is the growing segment of the marketplace embracing the traditional, classic custom carry piece. I agree wholeheartedly with Steve on the daily use of a fine custom gun. The confidence in a gun that not only serves, but inspires is rewarding beyond words and beyond price. You can have it both ways. Tough, durable, accurate, reliable, and downright elegant.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:11 pm 
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Very nice post, Steve!

"Paint it black, call it tactical, and cops will buy it" - It's a marketing ploy.

Pointman,
Your post reminds me of the guys who plunk down thousands for a nice pistol then carry it in Uncle Mike's nylon holsters. A fellow LEO back east shelled out good money for a P7 M13 that he loved, and carried it in some cheapo clip-on nylon no-name IWB he bought for 7 bucks at a gun show(and consequently rusted the crap out of it).
I never could talk him into good leather (No sales pitch; I wasn't making holsters at the time; I was carrying in Alessi and Nelson).

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:41 pm 
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Well said Steve!

After seeing My 1911's from Ted or My Hi-Power from Don, people have told me I'm crazy for carrying them every day I can. I tell them they're the crazy ones!

Take care!

Brian

P.S. I hope to see everyone in Las Vegas!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:52 am 
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Absolutely. Hopefully Las Vegas gives alot of us a chance to meet or get reacquainted with one another. I missed a day or so last year and regret not meeting several LTW alum.

I can only imagine the guns, company, and conversation will be good.

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"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking."
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:58 am 
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I really need to get to work on getting to SHOT sometime.
Those posts from approx a year ago about leather thongs didn't put me off. To the contrary......


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:33 pm 
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For myself, if I need to make ONE shot, I want my Mark IV series 80 Government, with its trigger job and Millet sights (quite an accurate weapon). However, for everyday carry, my Glock 30 is dependable (goes bang everytime I sqeeze the trigger), easy to carry, virtually indestructable (finish wise), accurate for what I'll need it to do, and easy enough to replace in the event of a shooting involvement leading to temporary confiscation by the authorities, making getting used to a new weapon unnecessary. I love the looks of a 1911, especially the Commander with the satin nickle frame and blued slide Colt made 20 odd years ago.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:00 am 
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This is what I have decided:

I'd rather have one just the way I want it than 10 sortas. So....here is what that means for me (it actually means a pair :? ):
1. LW officer frame w/ commander slide then speced out with parts to your individual preferences and needs. You have two of these built just in case there are any durability problems with the frame, although my research indicates that with a ramped barrell, or even without, a good quality LW frame used mostly with ball for practice and some defensive loadings for qualification will outlive most of us. Anyway, we have two right. Also, if one goes down or goes away, we still have a backup.
2. 20 Lpi works for carry if its dulled and (bead or sand?) blasted. Advantage- you get to use Aluminum Smith & Alexander msh's in the gun that are already machined or cast @ 20 lpi. No body makes a 30 lpi or even blank aluminum msh that I am aware of. Also, on an officer frame, a little bit of rounding to an S&A magwell still works very well for concealment and you can take it on and off for the IDPA match. Now, I prefer blasted 30 LPI for the feel of it, but you give up the ability to match it with a 30 lpi aluminum msh unless you want to go with a steel msh- then there are more options. IMO a good test (from some of the folks that make the after market msh's) is to drag a flannel shirt over it and see if it catches. If it does blast/dull it some more.

Cost: well if these are the only two pistols you buy or own it helps. The other less costly option over this custom from scratch approach would be to shop the net for a couple of compact CDPs then send them out to have them tweaked.

This particular platform, for me, works very well. I shoot the LW commander slide /officers slide as well as I shoot the goverment and I don't have to wear suspenders to carry it. In fact, I have this platform in a LW Wilson compact that comes in at 24 ounces w/o the magazine. It carries as well for me a my issued Glock 26. Easy to conceal and easy to shoot. I've come full circle from a steel goverment that I used to carry.

JMO but the approach is working well for me so far.


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